tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5800311.post1019483169638705464..comments2023-10-24T07:31:18.235-07:00Comments on Goldtoe Lemon.Nut: Self-improvement as self-deceptiongoldmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10773351408378125444noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5800311.post-57502982748873093422008-02-05T02:12:00.000-08:002008-02-05T02:12:00.000-08:00This really piqued my interest. Good thoughts eve...This really piqued my interest. Good thoughts everyone! As someone who has been intimately effected by the PUA community, I am the first to loudly scream from the rooftops that pick-up offers VERY dangerous potentials (as does anything that recommends using compliance techniques in everyday life). That doesn't negate the relevance of Strauss' presentation of social value judgments connected to the enigmatic land of attraction and attractiveness (as Mr. Jason's above comment re-enforces). This far from ONLY occurs in Los Angeles, tho LA/Hollywood might be considered a main hub. You might actually note similar behavior at a less sophisticated level in your local dog pound or jungle ape tribe. Good ole mammalian politics at their best (or worst?).<BR/><BR/>Of course, and unfortunately, most people who become involved in the manipulative world of Pick-up/seduction are indeed too immature to really overstand the consequences of what they are getting themselves into. Without further exploration and deep foundations of internal balance, the art of seduction is but a dead end.<BR/><BR/>Please, re-read Juggler's post printed in the book, 'The Seduction of Style'. Some PUAs DO know that you can't fill internal voids with external pursuits. I'm sure that makes them more attractive... <BR/><BR/>We are all fascinating individuals, but some of us are better at showing that side of ourselves than others. And, honestly, if anyone posting out there has never missed a chance at romance with someone they thought could be perfect for them, then please, tell me your secrets so I can steal your ideas and teach my own Pick-up seminars and sell millions of books.<BR/>peace.<BR/>and if you are still reading this far, i'm glad you enjoy me commenting in excess length of the original article...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07656943690391712495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5800311.post-30930085289697636032007-11-29T15:23:00.000-08:002007-11-29T15:23:00.000-08:00Thanks for the comments, May. I just spend my firs...Thanks for the comments, May. I just spend my first real weekend in LA a couple weeks back. It feels a little disappointing to go along with all the cliches about the place, but, man, LA is weird.<BR/><BR/>The status games that are played there are so nakedly transparent that it's a wonder folks aren't just a bundle of anxieties and insecurities. After spending 30 minutes unsuccessfully trying to get into a nightclub I was certainly questioning my self-worth/place in the universe.<BR/><BR/>Understanding The Game in the context of Los Angeles culture seems a really important point that both you and asruge have made (albeit in different ways).goldmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10773351408378125444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5800311.post-44953720400189790872007-11-29T15:01:00.000-08:002007-11-29T15:01:00.000-08:00I just finished reading this book and read your re...I just finished reading this book and read your review. I'm so glad you posted it because it pretty much sums up what I thought after finishing it. I have a feeling the game Strauss has chosen to play is never going to fill that emotional hole in his life because he's in a world that doesn't value some of his better qualities (they made him ashamed to be a writer!) I grew up in LA and remember how hard it was to be myself - how I'd often pretend to be dumber than I actually was to fit in.<BR/><BR/>When I finally left LA and moved to the Bay Area, I was so happy to finally be among people who valued the same things I did ....people who got out and *rode* their bikes instead of sitting in tanning salons to *look* the part...people who wanted to make new things that would change the world. These were the people I wanted to play with. <BR/><BR/>When people say "Don't hate the player, hate the game..." they're assuming there's only one game. I totally agree with you, we all choose the games that we play.mayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13190021946902947986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5800311.post-47291740093016386072007-08-29T15:28:00.000-07:002007-08-29T15:28:00.000-07:00the semi-criminal behavior was a path to *A* statu...the semi-criminal behavior was a path to *A* status, which would have been unachievable in any other way (at least by me--my mommy was a teacher at the school!). <BR/><BR/>we all buy into our own status systems; stauss' system, at least in LA, is pretty damn big.Adam Rugelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16956725895553626114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5800311.post-83616220403898459422007-08-29T14:00:00.000-07:002007-08-29T14:00:00.000-07:00But is your takeaway from high school that being d...But is your takeaway from high school that being drunk and semi-criminal was a reasonable status structure to aspire to? <BR/><BR/>Isn't the lesson of high school that no one feels cool and we find out afterward that you need to define that for yourself?<BR/><BR/>I don't doubt that there's a big part of LA culture that operates on very similar rules to that of high school. <BR/><BR/>That's no reason to buy into that system.goldmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10773351408378125444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5800311.post-69168842069106441182007-08-29T12:27:00.000-07:002007-08-29T12:27:00.000-07:00This reminds me of an argument I have with my pare...This reminds me of an argument I have with my parents on a regular basis about why I was a bad student and general miscreant in high school. <BR/><BR/>Most people (not everyone, but most) go through life trying to establish as much status as possible.<BR/><BR/>In my high school, being smart and getting good grades did not get you *A* status. Being a drunk and semi-criminal did. I took that prescribed route to *A* status. My younger brother didn't--but he never got *A* status in high school. So while it was possible to get through that high school without becoming a drunk and a semi-criminal, it was a lot easier to get *A* status if you did. <BR/><BR/>Strauss choose the prescribed route to *A* status. <BR/><BR/>One of the big systems of status in LA, hot girlfriend/wife, is something that needs to be manipulated--not for everyone, but for most people.Adam Rugelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16956725895553626114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5800311.post-18009570625944818172007-08-29T11:42:00.000-07:002007-08-29T11:42:00.000-07:00An interesting perspective but I very much disagre...An interesting perspective but I very much disagree. We choose the games we play. <BR/><BR/>If you see a system of status that needs to be manipulated in order to succeed, then that will be true for you. But I don't agree that this is how it works even within the more game-y tech world. <BR/><BR/>And even if that were true, applying those rules to personal relationships seems like a destructive leap. Why would you want to apply the same framework to your girlfriend as you do to you venture capitalist?goldmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10773351408378125444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5800311.post-4921985241028681972007-08-29T09:54:00.000-07:002007-08-29T09:54:00.000-07:00Living in Los Angeles for a year or two is probabl...Living in Los Angeles for a year or two is probably something you have to do to understand where Strauss is coming from, and why his brand of “weak-sauce Nietzschism” isn’t a cop-out, but a real path to legitimacy in that town. Status for a man in LA is pretty clearly defined by some combination of: 1) your status in The Business; 2) how hot your date/girlfriend/wife is; 3) how much money you have. Everything else is secondary. Pickup techniques helped Strauss with all three. <BR/><BR/>In our Bay Area tech subculture, #2 is definitely not part of the equation, but #1 and #3 certainly are. And to get status and money here, there does seem to be a similar kind of gamesmanship. In the startup/VC/angel world, don’t you think this line fits right in: “seduction is about the exercise of power and the manipulation of perception?”<BR/><BR/>Yes, Strauss seems shallow at times, but he’s playing by the rules of his town—and winning. As the great William James once said, “Don't hate the playa, hate the game.”Adam Rugelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16956725895553626114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5800311.post-55014164652385290482007-08-27T16:56:00.000-07:002007-08-27T16:56:00.000-07:00I had to stop because I haven't finished the book....I had to stop because I haven't finished the book. Will return for more. Party.Adam Rugelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16956725895553626114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5800311.post-82195819204809675722007-08-15T19:10:00.000-07:002007-08-15T19:10:00.000-07:00That's really interesting - I hadn't considered th...That's really interesting - I hadn't considered the larger manipulation that might be at work. Of course, the point is with The Game that I don't think Strauss actually ends up in a better place than where he starts. While it seems he's giving up pick-up forever, he actually opened a pick-up school this year in NYC.<BR/><BR/>But what can you expect. The guy included a paragraph in the book where he was typing while having sex with an characterless woman. And he included a footnote to explain that the typos were reproduced verbatim to preserve historical accuracy.goldmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10773351408378125444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5800311.post-23758111512067918952007-08-15T12:32:00.000-07:002007-08-15T12:32:00.000-07:00Your post reminded me of a conclusion I made while...Your post reminded me of a conclusion I made while reading <EM>Bridget Jones' Diary</EM>: there seems to be an overarching theme of justification in a lot of popular fiction, as if any sort of behavior can be excused as long as the protagonist ends up a bit better than he started. So while Strauss is successfully using his own techniques on his readers, his conclusions are probably that much more palatable because most readers are expecting him to improve, and so have already justified his actions. <BR/><BR/>(Frankly, there doesn't seem to be much of a point in reading books about protagonists we can't really be pleased with, although most of the popular fiction I've read seems to forget this until about the last hundred pages--<EM>The Nanny Diaries</EM>, in fact, forgot to make the heroine likable at all. My theory is that publishers assume we enjoy books more when we feel superior to the characters.)timonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14907891377942736041noreply@blogger.com